Bethel Is A Really Weird Church
I originally wrote this as a comment to this article I found about Bethel Church in Redding, California.
Ah, a post on the crazy church in Redding known as Bethel… and a detailed one at that.
First of all, let me paint a little background picture for the record:
I produced porn for 9 years. For the first 3 years of that time I was married and hid it from my now ex-wife, who was devastated when she found out. She found healing at Bethel Church in Redding. She’d tell me things that happened at that church and I’d get angry because it sounded so stupid and ridiculous.
I made fun of her all the time when she’d tell me some of the things the “School of Ministry” students did (she became a 1st year school of ministry student herself). Crazy things happened, supposedly. Like feathers falling from the sky during service…. like the time when the quadriplegic she cared for had her tooth healed (”Donny, I brushed her teeth for her this morning before taking her to church… that gold tooth wasn’t there, I swear to you!”). Like all sorts of other “healings”.
People come from all over the world to attend that church.
Last year I wanted to turn my life over to God and leave porn production. I reached out to Bethel. 4 times. They wouldn’t talk to me. I don’t know why. They wouldn’t return calls. Wendy (my ex) had her sister go directly to leadership and implore them to call me. They didn’t.
I eventually surrendered my life to God on my own. And I decided to check out Bethel.
It’s weird. That’s for sure.
But I felt God there. Very strongly. I decided to follow along on a “treasure hunt” like the one of which you spoke. I was flabbergasted at what happened. I rode along with one of the church’s pastors, in his car, as we drove around Redding. He saw a group of people standing in front of Carl’s Jr and walked up to them. I followed. The people must have thought we were really odd when he said he had “a word” for one woman in the group. He told her that God knew she hadn’t been sleeping well the last few nights and that was all going to stop as of “right now”. He told her other personal things about herself. The whole group started laughing because he was RIGHT ON about everything, including her not sleeping well the last few days.
It was really weird to witness that. I didn’t want to accept it then, and I still don’t now. But I can’t deny it happened.
One night I had a very painful ear ache. In the middle of service it was called out that someone had pain in their ear and God wanted to heal them. I took the chance and stood up. Less than 10 seconds after they started praying, my ear popped and stopped hurting.
It was really weird. But it happened.
I don’t go to that church very often anymore. This past Sunday was the first time in a few months. It weirds me out. I find some of the people odd, and one of their counselors pulled some crap I don’t appreciate at all.
They go way off into la la land on some of their teachings. They talk about things I’ve never heard in church before.
I like facts and am not as into “supernatural” stuff. It doesn’t resolve for me. But after Bethel I sometimes wonder if there’s a whole lot more “supernatural” to God than most of us realize. I wonder if he really does work in more “mysterious ways” than any of us will ever know, or allow ourselves to accept…
—-
PHOTOS FROM BETHEL CHURCH, THIS PAST SUNDAY:
(taken with my iPhone - click any photo to enlarge it)
Flags in Church? Why not? They used to bother me. Now I really like them. If we can get wild and crazy at sporting events, why not while celebrating our creator? (sent from my iPhone)
Kris Vallotton praying for a man who has cancer.
Kris Vallotton preaching onstage.
A “Mystery Worshipper” reviews Bethel - click here.
Filed under: Bethel Church, Donny Pauling, Kooky, Kris Vallotton, Redding Ca, iPhone
Yeah, I had the same experience with Vineyard Christian Church in Valparaiso, IN. VERY odd, very similar issues (including the flag-waving), but I couldn’t say that God was not there, not after just visiting. It just wasn’t for me. And eventually, God showed me to a church that was in line with my thinking AND my personality…AND God is there too!
I look at something like this like I do race relations. It’s undeniable that people of similar races tend to congregate together. That doesn’t mean it’s racist…I’d actually consider it the opposite of racist. It just means that in a sphere for a particular ethnicity, one is more likely to find similar experiences and similar mindsets.
In the same way, I think churches find congregations because people of a similar mindset end up finding each other. It doesn’t mean that it’s intentionally segregated…I think it’s the opposite. You see all these different churches with all the different ways of worship…and God is among all of us!!! I’m encouraged by the differences, because no matter what, it’s Christ that unifies us.
Bethel draws me like a magnet. If I lived closer that would definitely be my home church.
Jesus Friggen H’
“In the middle of service it was called out that someone had pain in their ear and God wanted to heal them.”
I guess God knew that someone had a ear ache, he just didn’t know who it was. Good thing that preacher was there to figure it out for him.
Donny, your turning in to a religious NUT CASE!
John,
Re-read the parts on free will in the book you were sent (”letters from a skeptic”). I’ll let you formulated the answer to that question yourself.
- D -
I suppose next week he just might say “One of you out there has a tooth ache!”. I’m no Dentist, but I’d say the odds are pretty darn good that out of the 100’s of people in the building he will be right AGAIN!
^ But only if two feathers fall from the ventilation system to prove it so.
Calling out a pain someone has is not remarkable, you’re right. But you seem to be forgetting the part where my ear popped and instantly stopped hurting. I’m not BSing you about that.
My dad used to go to those kind of churches.
People would ’speak in tongues’ rattling on a bunch of useless bla that nobody understands. I’d think that if god had a message for everyone he’d put it in English. Going in to convulsions on the floor. Weird stuff. I guess like everything else else, this to evolves over time. Now it’s flag waving, feathers falling from the sky, mysterious coins. Very strange indeed!
I grew up in similar churches, too. Most of it is BS crap. I personally think “speaking in tongues” is meant to refer to literal languages, but that’s another story.
As I mentioned, this church strikes me as odd in many ways. But it also intrigues me. I’m not saying I buy into what they’re selling, but I AM saying the things I’ve seen with my own eyes are very… remarkable.
“Remarkable” things don’t happen every service, either. But I’ve seen plenty to make me think. I still don’t want to accept it all, but I can’t deny what I’ve seen.
You CRAZY!
But your still the main man!
Donnie,
When the disciples were speaking in tongues it says that everyone heard them in their own language. That does not mean that it was each disciple spoke in another language. It seems to me that the disciples spoke in tongues of a heavenly language and the Holy Spirit interpreted to the hearers. I’ve attended Bethel for four years. I have 20 years of church leadership experience and 30 years of dealing with church politics. There is definite bullshit going on with the legit. There are some creepy weird and stupid people there. Spiritual orgies (people piling on top of each other while manifesting and trying to push the experience). You can’t always separate the fodder and try to control everything. The one with an encounter with God will always have the upper hand in a debate about what God will and will not do. I’ve had a few great encounters and have seen many real miracles, signs and wonders. The only big issue I have is that there’s not much love. I could get into a long rant on that, but I’ll save it.I can speak with tongue’s of angels, but if the relationship ain’t there I’m just clanging.
Dalen
People thought John the Baptist and Jesus were pretty weird too.
Donny,
I am learning about these kinda churches too from a guy I work with. I grew up in a Southern Baptist Church, though I am in the process of looking for a new church, so many of these things are kinda weird to me too. Just keep an open mind, you never know what God is going to teach you about things, or what you may come to believe.
Blake
We should remember that what we do inside or even outside the church should be done to edify( instruct, improve morally, build up) other believers and lead unbelivers to faith in the Lord. If you read 1 Corinthians 14:1-33 you’ll find Paul giving this teaching. Pay particular attention to verse 33. God is not the author of confusion.
BTW….y’all sure use some foul language to be trying to lead others in the right direction….
Then you should talk to Paul the Apostle about his use of words to communicate. Words, whether strong or soft, communicate. They’re just words bro, relax.
Dalen
Donnie —-
I am so happy for you that the Lord healed your ear. I am sorry that Bethel is so wierd (they are) and that the true love and purity of God is covered up by that wierdness. God says that he won’t take His gifts away from people and so He expects us to behave in a manner of integrity and wholeness (which does not include running around to fast food places giving a “word” to people, even if the “word” is right….. the Bible says to be in God’s timing, not our own. I have been supernaturally healed of Cystic Fibrosis and many other things and I subscribe to the idea that whatever you do, if it does not cause someone to want to know Christ, then you shouldn’t do it. Wierdness is Wierd and God isn’t wierd. The devil owns wierdness and the devil has some power too. People are stupid I guess and make a huge attempt to make God look wierd. I’m sorry that the wierdness got ya. The Lord is really full of love and His move of fullness and power and healing is so abundant and NOT wierd. In our church in Fresno, CA we are having a huge Revival and it goes on and on forever, we don’t have wierdness. We don’t have to, we have Jesus instead! So, I pray that you are able to find a place that comforts you and also lifts up Jesus. That’s what the Lord said was the big deal….. Jesus said, “If you lift me up, I’ll draw everyone to me.” and he also said…. “Don’t marvel that these miracles have happened, but rather be glad that your name is written down in the lambs book of life.” Congratulations on your name being written down in that book Donnie. thank you for defending the work of God, even in the midst of “the wierdness.” Blessings to you, Sandi
I think that we all know that signs and wonders do not show that a ministry is genuine. Think about matthew 7:22. If you haven’t read it check it out. These people plead to Jesus with their signs and wonders but he says depart from me I never knew you. Bethel may display signs and wonders but that doesn’t authenticate anything. Here is another scripture to think about:
“For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.” REvelation 16:14
“And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.” -Revelation 19:20
Wow guys, without knowing these people personally or having a good first hand knowledge you sound a bit judgmental. Let me clarify what I was saying in the first post. The leaders of this church are godly men. They have things together. Each congregation has flaws. Strengths and weaknesses. Bethel’s big weakness is the lack of connecting. The fellowship and relationship building is weak. It seems to be more of a big conference church with incredible insight into the supernatural works of God. Just like in the new testament there will be counterfeit right along with the real. The weeds that grow along with the crop will not be pulled till harvest. Just because the Bethel people work in the supernatural differently does not mean they are wrong. It does not mean that the REAL revival is only going on in Fresno. This is the classic Christian problem. “the river movement is the real one, no the seeker sensitive is best, no the regular pentecostal is the only way to go, you must worship on Saturday, you can’t be Catholic”, so on and so forth. Well like it or not we are brothers and sisters. The weird ones too. Don’t try to clone yourself. Like Steve Taylor’s song says “….cloneliness is next to godliness, right? I’m grateful that they showed the way, ’cause I could never know the way to serve him I my own. I want to be a clone.
I now need to go watch a movie with my wife, so I’ll give the rest of my view on this later. God bless you all.
Dalen
Dalen,
That was very well written.
- Donny -
Donny,
This is the same response I put on my blog.
It sorta sounds like you have the same belief that many do today, i.e. if good stuff is happening then it must all be okay and there’s no need to worry about anything.
Why is it that every time I raise questions about certain movements, the first thing that happens is folks begin talking about how nice the people are, how much supernatural stuff is happening and all the other good things they can list, but they never address the questions I raise?
I don’t have issue with healing.
I don’t have issue with deliverance.
I don’t have issue with blessings.
I don’t have issue with accurate personal prophecy.
I don’t have issue with any of the “good” things you listed as a defense of Bethel Church. Those aren’t problems so why discuss them?
So let’s talk about the teachings they allow, the practices they engage in and the other issues I raised. Let’s stop creating diversions and face up to what should be faced. How ’bout addressing the thrust of this post? How ’bout asking Bill Johnson to find justifacation for girls who wave flags in the front of the church wearing skin tight clothing revealing all the flesh that men like most? How ’bout asking these ladies how they justify the heavy, jerky bowing they do that causes their low rider pants to expose their G-strings and upper half of their butt cheeks in front of my boys in my youth group?
How ’bout this Donny:
Stop telling me about the good stuff I already know about and don’t have a problem with.
Stop side tracking the discussion and deal with the issues, finger tip to finger tip, eyeball to eyeball, hand to hand.
Accurate prophecy? Praise God!
Healings? Praise God!
Remember how Jesus dealt with those churches in the book of Revelation: He complimented what was good (read around here, I’ve done that) but took major issue with what was wrong and told these churches that even with them doing what was good they ran the risk of Him removing His presence from them if they didn’t correct their errors!!!
Remember His phraseology: “Strengthen what remains”, “Repent” and such like.
If you can’t do this simple thing (engage the realities of what I’m discussing) then I can’t take you seriously, nor can I take your defense of this church, as a whole, seriously. The good things cannot pacify God from dealing with what is bunk, and what is bunk is horribly and tragically wrong!
Try having this attitude toward a marriage.
“He works hard, loves the kids and pays all the bills…but he likes flirting with girls”.
Uh, no.
See what I mean?
Engage the actual issues raised and please, PLEASE stop telling me about all the nice stuff and nice people and good things that I already know about. I used to live only 2 hours away dude…I went to Bethel a bunch of times, it’s not like I’m a stranger to it, or the movements they espouse.
Later,
mark jr.
BTW,
Vince actually does know a lot of the people from that church. He goes to a local college in Redding and has been through Bethel many, many times.
Just so you know…
Donnie,
Appreciate that you are trying to sort it all out. I believe in Pentecostalism, but it must be done with ” decency and orderliness” I Cor 12,13, 14 or else those around who don’t know us or Jesus will think we are nuts. When we get outside of the instructions of the scripture regarding the use of the Gifts and what they are for then it becomes nothing more than a “make me feel good” experience. It becomes self center-vain-imagination of man and takes our eyes off of Jesus.
The Holy Spirit was never to be worshiped in the manner that the church does today. In fact the Holy Spirit’s task is to bring all men to the knowledge of Christ, the one we are to worship.
We may think we are giving glory to God but ultimately it is all about us. Seeker sensitive is based off of plegiasm theology and was considered a heresy by the church in 450 A.D. It has reared it’s ugly head again.
Much of what we see in churches today is from the “prophetic movement” and is based on a theology called Latter Rain. It was considered a heresy by the AG Church (Bethel’s denomination) and many of the people that have come to minister at Bethel (guest speakers) come from this theology and are speaking false teaching to the people.
I personally believe the Gifts were not suppose to be used for show but to be able to validate the ministry of Jesus Christ, unto salvation. I have not been to Bethel but my in-laws have had alot of contact with them and we have had people from my church go. What they brought back, some good but much more so wacked out, I couldn’t believe my ears.
So while I will not doubtthat you experienced “something” and it very well may have been a touch from the Lord, I would be very careful what you accept as teaching that seems right but is not because of very poor hermanuetical teaching.
Mark Jr.,
Let me just take the step of offending your religiosity to the fullest. Try this. After Adam and Eve were clothed in the garden by God, was Eve topless? Why not? The breast’s human function are to nurture. Thus the Hebrew name for God as the “many breasted One” El Shaddai. So social culture and religious culture create a conditioned response. “Don’t show the neck of a woman or it’s a sin.” I know men who have a fetish foe elbows. Control lust and choose not to. If a man sees a naked woman , the religious response is that he must lust. I was brought up in that environment. I disagree with that completely. I addressed that in the previous post, but on a mild note. Your way is to “change those naked savages into us white missionaries, and make them wear our Christian European clothing(cloning).” Those skin tight clothes that the girls wear are for dancing.(spandex or stretch pants) You seem to have a gavel in your hand. Be careful, Plankeye. That controlling spirit will eat you alive. Are you the type that stands by the principle over the person?
Iwanthetruth,
What heresy was according to man’s understanding 100 years ago changes. God is constantly breaking out of our boxes. I seek the truth. I seek a deeper relationship with Christ. I know His voice well. We build our principles and understanding of God from the interpretation of Scripture and the relationship with Him. (experiencing Him) Our understanding will change at times if we let God show us. Unfortunately we often put into stone our principles that were derived from our interpretation or our mentors understanding. Why do you think the Jews had such a hard time accepting Christ as the Messiah? In the early church the disciples did not think that tongues were for the gentiles until Peter reported that they had the same experience that the disciples had on the day of Pentecost. Are you following?
well, I just got back from two photo calls for Chico State Theatre , and have a lot of photo’s to process for tomorrow. So I’ll end here, but this is very fun verbal jousting. I haven’t had this much fun since Bible College.
Shalom
Dalen
Alright, I’m now waiting for my digital negatives to export so I’ll throw this last thing in before I go to bed. I’ve known the pastor of Bethel Bill Johnson for years. My father was a guest instructor many times at his discipleship school. Bill could eat your hermetical asses for lunch, but he would not waste his time or energy on useless argument. Most people spend too much time trying to measure skirt lengths and prove their way is the only way, and have no ear for reason. The man IS a righteous “Man O God”. Yes I said asses. That’s in the King James Bible.LOL
That is “hermenuetical asses.” My spell check grabbed it.
Donnie,
you are a very interesting person. You have experienced the supernatural touch of the Lord in a Pentacostal Church, but I guess you feel it is a weird church (?) and then the three books that have changes your life are from the Emergent Church folks.
Hmmm! God works mysteriously.
“How ’bout asking these ladies how they justify the heavy, jerky bowing they do that causes their low rider pants to expose their G-strings and upper half of their butt cheeks in front of my boys in my youth group?”
Where at in Redding? BURP!
Hey Donny,
Great post. Really balanced. As always. Bethel is a weird church, but so is mine… it all depends on where you’re coming from. To John, pretty much any church would come across as weird–and he’d be right.
Most people have had a little encounter with the supernatural power of Jesus… but nothing like what happened in the apostle’s days. Dead living. Deaf hearing. Lame walking. For us today, it’s more like feathers dropping and ears popping. Bring me a revived Lazarus, and I’m down for it!
I’m taking my son to see the Transformers today. Should be a spiritual experience.
Later.
Bill
You can’t go wrong following the only “right” that ever lived…Jesus Christ. I got saved in adulthood, a very strong conversion after living a fairly selfish sinful life. God changed me overnight. Here is my encouragement to you. Follow JESUS and not man. Don’t be bewitched by healings, and miracles but be in awe of the cross, the atonement of Jesus for your sins.
Maybe stop reading other books (for a while) and read the Word of God. This will give you your spiritual strength and above all DISCERNMENT. Start in New Testament, read a few times. THen go back and start at the beginning..Actually my favorite is chapter 1, Genesis. I was a zealous, passionate new believer and got misguided in a cultish church. But what led me out, was my zealous reading of the FULL COUNSEL of God. I could then know for sure if someone was saying something in a sermon out of context. The Holy Spirit will help you learn the truth and make sense of out of this bible that is not so easy to understand. But, it is the story of our Savior…it is HIS story, and it is meant for us.
Next month is my 9th anniversary as a new creation in Christ. It took me a while to understand the bible, but now I’m very grounded in it and I can stand in truth. This is what I pray for you.
I want to mention some thing here… I do attend this church and have for well over 12 years.. We havent been in the Assembly Of God denom for a while now.. This church is my family and is as well grounded and balanced as I have ever attended in my life ( and I have been to alot of others ) .. Excesses? Yep.. but then you are gonna find that in every organization where ever people are involved.. Doesnt mean we all are that way or we all arent… I can take you to nearly any legit church and find excesses one way or another… NO one is perfect ( although I think we are close! ) Blessings.. Spirit Fire aka Mags
This church is my family and is as well grounded and balanced as I have ever attended in my life ( and I have been to alot of others ) .. Excesses? Yep..
Which is it… grounded or excesses? It shouldn’t be excess at all. Excess tells me that there is no “decency and orderliness” in what is going on.
IWantthetruth:
Don’t you think Christ is better served when Christians are out trying to reach the lost, rather than arguing about who’s right or wrong? SO much time is wasted on groups badgering each other over differences in beliefs.
Choose where you fit in… and do so. It does nobody any good for us to tear each other down.
Every day of my life I am endeavoring to show the love of Christ to my neighbors and minister to them. It is a joy and honor to represent Christ because of what he has done for me. To preach to the lost. THAT is our main task, but the the blood of Christ on the cross and repentence is the ONLY thing that will save, deliver and really mean anything in the end.
But at the same time I don’t believe that every wind of doctrine, every method of evangelism should be used. I have found that the methods seem to always come from poor doctrine.
If Christ spoke so much about the false, if the Apostles had so many warnings and instructed those such as Timothy to tell them to stop, isn’t it prudent that we also imitate them in all areas of our walk?
Frankly, I believe that I have been given authority through the word to bring to those who may be teaching incorrectly or falsely, correction but also if it is not taken, I walk away.
If the pride of those is so strong to not beable to atleast listen to correction then I see no reason to go on. I am no pure, perfect bible scholar. I have missed the mark many times in my interpretation and have had to be corrected. It is hard to take sometimes but worth the freedom of knowing Christ better and the word better. I pray that someday the light will go on, but I shake the dust from my feet, still love them as commanded by our Lord, but I will have nothing to do with the false teaching.
There are things that are just plain wrong and should stop. Not just in Bethel and other churches, but in my own church as well. God forbid that we should admit that there is abuse. Not only admit it but do anything about it.
Iwanthetruth:
You have no relationship with any of these congregations leaders. Without relationship you are overstepping your boundaries. Paul spoke to those he had a relationship with and corrected what he viewed as wrong. Your self-righteous religious arrogance shows clearly, bro. You don’t want the truth, you want everything to add up and be explainable. Anything that is outside of your grid must not be from God. My great grandfather said that God would never allow man to fly to the moon. He said it was wrong and God never intended for that to happen. He even used scripture. I do not remember him well, but I have been told that he was a great man of God who lived a godly life. Man went to the moon a few years after he died. So why did Christ not stop all the counterfeit that was around? Did he cloth the half naked prostitute that was caught in adultery? How about the cultural and societal prejudices that Paul brought into his writing that had nothing to do with being from God.
Oh, and one more thing. You have no dust on your feet. That would mean that you were actually in some sort of properly commissioned mission work that involved Christ’s love and humility.
Thank you Dalen,
I have been properly spanked.
I was going to respond to you if only to defend myself. But I think I won’t. I have erased my comments three times now.
I only want to say that I apologize if it seemed I was attacking any particular person, that was not my intent. I strongly believe there is a false teaching going on in the church today that is part of the “prophetic movement” that needs to be addressed. I have been a pentecostal christian for 35+ years, have seen some awesome things that the Lord has done in peoples lives along with many, many people come to know the Lord.
I am sure your are a passionate person who wants to follow after the things of God and loves the Lord. I appreciate your response that was given to me in the “love of the Lord”. That will be my only dig at you….
The rest I will not need to respond to as I think you are angry. Maybe my post above seemed the same way. The problems of blogging, no actual personal body language comunications to see how the person is truely responding. They say body language is a large part of any conversation.
Blessings on you…
Oh by the way Dalen,
I strongly believe there is a false teaching going on in the church today that is part of the “prophetic movement” that needs to be addressed.
I question the church because it supports those that are considered to be the perpetrators of the false teaching of the “prophetic movenment”. They have been there and spread the teaching to your congregation and it is accepted.
I guess you must be a follower of LatterRain/Dominion/Joel’s Army theology?
Have you researched the belief system/theology of these teachings? If not do so.
Iwanthetruth,
I was not and hardly ever are angry in these types of sparring. I definitely disagree with your take that the current prophetic movement is not of God. That being said I never get mad anymore due to opposing opinions. The question is this. Are you willing to be wrong?
Anyway, you seem to be an interesting person. Give me a call sometime, maybe we could spar over coffee sometime if you are not too far away. 530.262.5217
Dalen
Good, I am glad you aren’t angry. And yes I am willing to be wrong but after researching for the past year and a half the basic theology of the teachings and what drives the “prophetic movement” I will not concede on.
But I will tell you that at one time I was a cessionist and I did concede that. Why? Because I experienced the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. That was a great experience and it has been an awesome walk with the Lord since then.
If you are a Bethel man you must live in or around Redding. I am about 6 hours north of you in the great state of Oregon. BUT, I am and always will be a native Californian, born in Los Angeles.
Just a small expose on myself. Iam 55, have two kids, one married the other a great guitar player and helps lead worship in a 4square church. I am alos a worship leader in a 4square church. Go figure and I question the theology of the teachings of today????
Anyway, maybe someday as I travel to the south to visit family I’ll give a call and we can indeed talk over a cup of coffee.
sounds great,
I am 37 and was raised a p.k. in the Assemblies of God. I am in no way a A.G. apologist. While attending college in Santa Cruz I attended Coastlands (4square). I went to a Baptist high school, etc , and etc. I am not a follower of any of those theologies you mentioned. Just what I have experienced, observed and developed over the last 37 years of life, 32 as a Christian. By the way, I graduated from Salem Academy in ‘88. Too much rain. My email if you’d like to continue to communicate is theeccentric@gmail.com.
Dalen
Dalen,
What’s your thoughts on this?
There are many varied beliefs or paradigms regarding the present apostolic/prophetic movement. They take different approaches in their doctrine to justify and explain how and why what they believe is correct. However, in the end their beliefs aren’t very different from one another. One group sees a great overcoming army being raised up by God (commonly referred to as Joel’s Army). Another group (most of the ones you named) believe in the restoration of the governmental rule of apostles and prophets to take the Church to the place of revelation and understanding necessary to restore the Church to its rightful place by their hand. Another group sees the key to the end times in the “spiritual” fulfillment of the Feast of Tabernacles. Another sees the key in the restoration of the Tabernacle of David and Davidic worship. Others see the key in the Manifest Sons of God doctrine, where the Sons of God rise up to take there place in the earth as the great overcomes there were meant to be. There are many variations, but they all are incredibly similar in there belief of a “special” end time group of people that God will have to subdue the earth, conquer Satan and bring in a great end times revival of souls like the world has never seen all the while being so totally filled with God’s power and anointing. Some even see believers becoming so filled with God’s power that they are considered Christ incarnation among His people, or His “corporate body” on earth before He can come again and receive the Kingdom. To arrive at this type of belief scripturally, they have to allegorize God’s Word or practice what is known as Replacement Theology, where promises for literal Israel in the end times are taken to no longer be meant for Israel but for the Church. Since much is based on allegory of scripture and new fresh revelations received from God in order to bring the Church to this special place, one can see why there is so much craziness. It’s so much based on esoteric experiences of “God showed me” or “God told me”, or “God gave me a dream or a vision…blah blah blah” which contain the “new” or “fresh” truths for the Church today. That’s why the Bible, the Word of God, has become so outdated to them and holding to His Word is considered “religious” or “natural minded”. You need the “spirit” to understand what God is doing now so you can’t hold to the old way, you have to let go of your understanding and accept the new understanding God will give you if you will just yield. The point for true believes, is yield to what? If you don’t try things by the Word of God with your mind then how do you know just what you’re yielding to? Signs and wonders are not proof of God. Actually lying signs and wonders involve real healings, true words that are accurate or can come to pass. Manifestations are real. BUT they’re lying when the purpose is to deceive and mislead you from the Truth and cause you to follow another Jesus, or gospel, or Spirit. This is things in a very small nutshell.
Dalen,
By the way, I am a p.k. also……
I think much of that take is bullshit, quite frankly. Dreams and visions need to be taken lightly, and one needs to see if things come to fruition. I believe God made the human race with an innate ability to sense and read in the spiritual realm. Where you take it from there is up to you. People that give very general words of knowledge are often picking up things in a natural way. I’ll expound on all that later. I have some clients to meet with soon here.
Dreams and visions need to be taken lightly, and one needs to see if things come to fruition.
Taken lightly by whom, the reciever or the giver, both?
I think part of the problem is that to many people take a dream or vision and without testing just blurt it out. The reciever thinks it’s a “word” and begins to base their “modis operandi”(if spelled right) on the given dream or vision and when it doesn’t come to pass, and many don’t, they can become wary of the faith and begin to question God. I have seen it happen.
My intent by the way wasn’t to focus on the dreams, visions, etc,., but the theology that this person is speaking of. It (these theologies) are rampant and of course it comes down to what you believe and follow, but is it really “sound doctrine”?
Too many people today think that the scriptures are old news and that they need to be re-defined and re-interpreted so as to be successful in the church today.
“People that give very general words of knowledge are often picking up things in a natural way. I’ll expound on all that later. I have some clients to meet with soon here.
I know exactly what you mean here. no to expound unless you really want to.
Blessings
I know kids from my church that go to Bethal and they have told me pretty crazy things. Things to them are very normal. Such as: a man having oil coming from his hands for over three days and the man said he “sprunge a leak”. I have heard of the treasure hunts, tunnels, feathers, gold tooths, gold dust, diamods, being drunk in the spirit, laughing, and many other things that I do not believe are biblical because I have looked. They are no longer interested in the Word of God because it is “boring”. They are addicted to these signs and wonders, healings, and prophetic words! They have said that if the “devil” puts thoughts or doubts into their mind they have been taught to say it and then laugh at it and it will be gone. This is what they are paying to learn!!!
These kids have been convinced that these are acts of the Lord and I would even say they have been brain washed into this. They are up agianst their parents telling them, “You just don’t understand.” Something is not okay with this.
-Arizona
Wow!, Arizona
I guess if you gave your kids some killer presents, and they loved them.They kept talking about the gifts and spent all of their time with the gifts and forgot about you. I guess they were not from you. Great logic.
They are no longer interested in the Word of God because it is “boring”.
Dalen,
Doesn’t this bother you? The scripture is boring? Are they getting this from Bethel?
One of the lies that these kids are being given is that there are only two spiritual buckets–the modern prophetic movement and a dry, lifeless spiritual existence. This greatly ignores history and the examples of MANY great men and women of faith who had vibrant walks with God and possessed NO CONCEPT of this type of teaching.
These are the things that our children are hearing from “Men of God” (from other ministries outside of Bethel, I am not accusing Bethel of this)that disturb us because we are trying so hard to raise our kids in the ways of the Lord and the church that operates in the “prophetic movement” are undermining our attempts to love our kids in the Lord, teach them the truth of the word.
Another statement by another parent,
The last thing that was prophesied over him was that he would return home and his father would label this as heresy. Can you imagine how offensive this type of self-fulfilling trick is to a father that has invested that last twenty years into the life of a child?
So now do you understand why I think a theology that is not based on the truth of the scriptures is dangerous. It leads people away from the truth of the Word. Instead of teaching “Honor thy Father and Mother” they are told that they are to mis-trust them and not listen to them. This is the stuff and much more within these theologies and you tell me that “I think much of that take is bullshit, quite frankly.”
This is not the only area that this is happening in. There are many other area of Christianity that is being taught falsely.
Signs and wonders are good. The Lord gave us the Gifts of the Holy Spirit and those gifts are accompanied by signs and wonders, but not in this kind of extra-biblical crap.
Arizona,
Go to http://signofjonah.wordpress.com/
and read there. You will find much support in your concerns.
Arizona,
You are mistaken in what you understand that this leadership is teaching. Hearsay is just that. If you don’t have first-hand knowledge and are actually talking to these leaders personally you have no leg to stand on. Scripture is definitely very important to Bethel, it is not discounted. Signs and wonders are not more important, but they are good. You can lead a horse to water… If the young people choose to desire the gifts over the giver that is their choice. You can’t force them to do what you want. In no way are the leaders of Bethel promoting rebellion. Quite the contrary. Bill is very big on taking what ground that was won from previous generations as inheritance and moving forward. Great respect is given to those in our history. (across denominational lines). These young people you talk about were either given bad counsel by a young leader or they have not given all the info. Maybe a little bit of both. Like Donny said. Let’s stop bitching at each other over frivolous matters and do the real work at hand. There are crazy cult-like churches and churches with false doctrine. Those ones are very easy to spot if you actually have good info and discernment. Bethel will get tagged with all sorts of names, but the truth remains. The relationship with Christ is their push, manifestations, signs and wonders follow.
Peace
Dalen
Iwantthetruth,
Thanks for the website. I haven’t had a chance to check it out, but I will. I have been subject to these teaching for over ten years. Many things didn’t “seem” ok to me, but I trusted the people who were in leadership over me. After recent conversations, previously stated, I decided that I would look a little more into it. When I started it was like my eyes were opened up to a whole world I never knew. I am coninuing to look into these things and my family and I are in the process of finding a new church home. This is not an easy thing by any means, but the Bible says what it says and I am not willing to risk my salvation on the account that God “might” be okay with these signs and wonders.
Dalen,
I am a little unsure what your point is. And I feel no need to fued with you over this. It’s not right and that’s that.
Arizona,
I meant to address Iwanthetruth in the last post. Something you should look at. In the history of the world since the death and resurrection of Christ there have been many revivals. Most marked by signs and wonders such as these “new” ones. The church body does not do much in teaching church history. I know of a book that documents many things like what happens today, yet these happened over a hundred years ago. I have no intention of feuding with you, but I will state truth. You can believe what you want.
Arizona,
I agree that there have been many revivals in churh history, and all as far as I know and believe have been accompanied with signs and wonders. I think the deeper issue of today is that the current revivals that have occured, Toronto Blessing, Brownsville, etc. have been based on what many mainline pentecostal/charasmatics feel are extra-biblical and when downright checked out with scripture with good hermanuetical study of the scripture, you will find that there is much that has been done contrary/out of context.
With further research you will find that even those who supported some of these current revivals (Derek Prince, Paul Gowdy, etc) are now begining to admit that they were not of the spirit of the Lord but of some other spirit. Disturbing to say the least! Also, it seems that there are many who had spent many years in some of these “movements” are now coming forward and admitting that there is error and at time gross error in the scriptural interpretations that became the theological foundations of these supposed revivals.
So, I think it wise that you study the scripture asking the Holy Soirit to lead into all truth and question when things just don’t seem to add up or line up.
Dalen,
I am not in anyway, in this post suggesting that about Bethel, so don’t get defensive… I am talking generalized regarding many of the revivals of today.
Peace out to both of you
Thanks for the information guys. I will use it to help myself come closer to the truth. I did think the sign of Jonah website was good. Have you read the apologetics websites?
Also, you can go to youtube and find some pretty disturbing videos with Todd Bentley healing people. One has this chick rolling around and really it looks more like a demonic spirit than one of the Lord.
Check it out! AZ
We all have our opinions, we all have our experiences, but we must measure everything against Jesus. Jesus sent a herd of pigs over a cliff by sending a legion of demons out from a man. Think about it, that would be a pretty “weird” sight to see; have you ever seen someone being delivered of a demon? It’s not pretty; just read the description in the Bible. About going to Carl’s Jr. to give a word to a woman…what about Jesus going to the Samaritan woman and “reading her mail” and, oh-by-the-way, it was a big no no to for Jewish men to speak to Samaritan women. What harm did that young man do? None. Nobody knows what the Holy Spirit was up to…who are we to judge God’s move anyway? My Pastor says with everything we see or hear, treat it like eating fruit, eat the fruit and spit out the seeds. We all have the Holy Spirit in us; if something doesn’t sit well, just ask the Holy Spirit…He’ll tell you what to do. Quit being judgemental, does, plank in your eye mean anything? Someone earlier on this blog mentioned about if we have prophesy, cast out demons and even raise the dead but don’t love people then we are a clanging cymbal. If anyone on this blog is without sin…cast your stone (boy didn’t that sound rightous and spiritual hee, hee). God bless you all and may the Lord reveal Himself to us more. Nicki
It sounds like you are being a little judgemental yourself Nicki. Remember that Satan can be dressed in many cloths and you can just as easily be tricked as the next person. Yes, the Spirit is inside of you, but you better check things with the Bible because You and your feelings and thoughs might get in the way of the Holy Spritit and the truth. There is no wonder to me that the Bible exists, otherwise we would have nothing to check things against.
another interesting blog. I agree with the fact that some of us need to relax a bit and not attack your brother and sisters. I was saved into a small home group that spoke in tongues, did deliverance and maybe the best was dream interpreation and the fact that because we were so close, God would give us dreams meant for someone else in the group. There was a lot of encouragement and confirmations(meaning multiple confirmations of a dream/prophesy from outside the group)
This is a great way that the Lord uses to build us up. I think one reason it was so great is that we were very close together and so our lives were sort of knit and intertwined so we could speak into each others lives more.
however as of the last 2+ years from digging into the word, I can see some problems with the theology that we were believing in, and the lack of Bible teaching. I know that God was working big time, and that’s how he eventually led me to a more Bible strong group(through a dream of the Pastor). Funny, leading me through a dream to a much more Bible based church.
I think that one problem people have is too much excitement over signs. If it is from the Lord, in my experience, he will confirm it for you more than once, and I don’t mean that after the prophesy, the guy next to him says, “I see it too” God is big and he confirms his signs in ways that are impossible to fake, like a stranger at the bus stop later saying the same thing that your brother/sister said in church, for example.
Matt,
You experience sounds very similar to mine. I am only as far as your third paragraph and working towards the fourth. Thanks for the encouragement. Was is hard to break away from your group?
I have not been to the church personally, but have Bill Johnson, his team, and other pastors come to our church yearly. They are all very wise and I know that God leads them daily. What I have learned is to throw off religion. I know I will get a lot of reponses on that, but hear what I am saying…RELIGION, Not JESUS. Religion can build the walls up between christians and make the lost never want a relationship with God. You talk about the women and their clothing. Let God deal with them on that. Jesus wants to change to people and he never refused anyone. Read on who he reached out to most and the background of his diciples. On talking in tongues. This is not for others to understand. It is meant for God ears when it is you praying to him. I have found many times that when I am praying in the spirit I will have many emotions. Sometimes I will be crying and I can feel God is moving in my and healing me, maybe in ways I have’nt even seen I needed. As for when someone gives a message in tongues it should always follow with the interpertation. That is God speaking to us. I thought people were crazy at first when I would see them jerking or falling out…, but it happened to me and I never thought it would. I can tell you it is the most peaceful experience. The dancing and flag waiving do have purposes. They are breaking down walls. Yes and sometimes you will see demonic spirits in people at churches. The bible says the devil is always at church. It is crazy to see them released from a person, but thank God their are people willing to help them and work in the supernatural. Just because you think the supernatural does’nt exist does not mean it does not. There is a supernatural world at work, good and evil. If you open your eyes to it you can not ignore it. Everyone has free will, but please just do not take some ones word that they are crazy. Do your own praying about this and let God open your eyes to his truths. You could miss God from others doubts. Always put Jesus first and pray each day that he can use you as he sees. Do not worry what others think of you because it really only comes down to what Jesus thinks. Also please do not think I am bashing you for thinking they are crazy. I once thought this way, but I asked God to show me if it was real and He has. Sorry if there is many errors of spelling and stuff in this post. I have the Flu, but know that God is healing me of this
be blessed!!!!!
Does anyone have any experience with Bethel Church relating to “Recovered Memories”, or Theophostic therapy? My daughter sought counseling at Bethel 3 years ago and that was the end of our relationship. Please, if anyone who has had a similar experience I could really use any information that you have.
I went to Bethel Church for a healing. I was very open. I didn’t know anything about it before going to the service.
There was no surge of God’s power. What I did see disturbed me. I saw jerking, people looking for a emotional experience, and witchery laughter. I felt a strong sense of the devel’s presence. I think people are getting demonized. I prayed God would put a protective wall around me.
I do believe in the supernatural, and in the gifts. In some cases perhaps by faith people are healed. Healing can happen where there is faith. It can happen in your own closit.
I am sceptical of any group where people look up to the pastor like a god. What ever he says is gospel truth. Scripture tells us to question the spirits to see if it is of the Holy Spirit. We are exhorted to examine everything by Scriptures. I think in this Church there is a strange fire happening. I would want to get burned by it.
This Church shall come to naught.
You should check out David Wilkerson’s article on this movement written up in the Carisma magazine.
M. Barry and Arizona: M. Barry, you were under some kind of personal demonic assault when you walked into Bethel, but you weren’t consciously aware of it at the time. Don’t make it your fault or theirs. One of the gifts of the Spirit is discernment. Without becoming devil-conscious, learn to discern what is hitting you and why. Then rebuke it in Jesus’ name, the Name above every Name. Two easy biblical steps: 1) Submit to God, 2) Resist the devil and voila! he will flee from you. The presence of the Lord is at Bethel and it’s not hard to tune into. They are also very Scriptural. I was raised Baptist, have been pentecostal for many years now. I understand how they both think. All Christian churches say they believe the whole Bible, but they sure promote different emphases, don’t they? I read this whole blog here, and it wasn’t real hard to pick up denominational biases of the writers. No one just sits in a hollow tree reading the Bible with no outside influences, and they wouldn’t come up with the perfect interpretation on their own anyway because the human mind is enmity against God. Most Christians have had the Bible spun to them according to the Anabaptists’ thinking, the pentecostal thinking, the Catholic thinking, you name it. Your mind is a filter when you read the Bible. However does God manage to get through to the fundamentalist? Now that is a modern miracle in itself! They can be so mental in their relationship with God, the same shortcoming that caused the Pharisees to miss the day of their visitation. Now how is that picky error-paranoid theology more holy than being emotional and joyful and occasionally erratic? Jesus came across as weird putting mud on that guy’s eyes to heal him (they don’t do THAT at Bethel). Then He forgave the woman caught in adultery which was flat-out unscriptural. The Pharisees were absolutely correct in asserting that the Bible said she should be stoned. Then to frost them all and freak out even His own disciples, “Eat My flesh and drink My blood?!” How unscriptural can He possibly get? We have no problem with that 2000+ yrs later because we hear the spirit of what He was saying, but put yourself in the shoes of those sincere, very dedicated doctrinal experts, the Pharisees. Would YOU have had ears to hear this scary guy who claimed to be the Messiah or would you have left? Jesus even asked His own hand-picked 12 disciples, “Are you guys going to go too now?” True hunger for God gives someone ears to hear. Blessed are those who have ears to hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches. Here is a model to judge a church by: The poor received Jesus gladly and he had a big rag-tag following (not all of them perfect by the way). The Pharisees on the other hand searched far and wide to make one proselyte. Hmmm…. Bethel has gone to 3 services on Sun am they are getting so huge because people are meeting God there and getting what they need to grow. There are other churches in Redding searching far and wide to make one proselyte. Rick Warren’s church is like 25-30,000 people and I didn’t think too much of that one way or the other until I saw him on God TV. Incredible deep, deep dedication to the Lord, same as I’ve witnessed in Bill Johnson and the other Bethel pastors. The churches that are attached to the Vine are bearing fruit and their fruit is remaining, much to the chagrin of churches that are so obsessed not with the Bible per se, but limited, disempowering, unglorifying-to-God interpretations of the Bible that no doubt give the devil a better night’s sleep. Get on your face before God. Make Him tell you what He thinks of Bethel. Who cares what I think or Dalen thinks. Hope this helps. Love, Linda
Linda,
That was a really great comment. Thank you for taking the time to post it.
Linda,
I have a few questions about your post. Would you mind answering them? I am very curious about this church.
1. You stated to M. Barry, “you were under some kind of personal demonic assault when you walked into Bethel, but you weren’t consciously aware of it at the time.”
Do you have some certain knowledge that he was under a demonic assault or do you just assume that he was because he stated, “I think people are getting demonized”?
You say he was under demonic assault. He says that he thought that people were getting demonized. Linda can you tell me how I can decide which of you—if either—is correctly attributing demonic influence?
2. You stated, “Most Christians have had the Bible spun to them according to the Anabaptists’ thinking, the pentecostal thinking, the Catholic thinking, you name it. Your mind is a filter when you read the Bible.”
Linda can you tell me why you are immune to the Bible being spun to you if you are in fact claiming that?
3. You wrote,” However does God manage to get through to the fundamentalist? Now that is a modern miracle in itself! They can be so mental in their relationship with God, the same shortcoming that caused the Pharisees to miss the day of their visitation.”
Can you explain why it is wrong to be mental in our relationship with God? Can you give a scriptural reference that proves that it was being, “mental” that caused the Pharisees to miss the day of their visitation?
4. You asked, “Now how is that picky error-paranoid theology more holy than being emotional and joyful and occasionally erratic?
Are you saying that the Pharisees missed the day of their visitation because they were afraid of committing errors? And if that is what you are saying can you provide a scriptural reference?
5. You stated, “Then He forgave the woman caught in adultery which was flat-out unscriptural.”
Can you explain how it was unscriptural for God in Flesh to forgive the woman caught in adultery? And if you can will you please give a scriptural reference to support your argument?
6. You stated, “The Pharisees were absolutely correct in asserting that the Bible said she should be stoned. Then to frost them all and freak out even His own disciples, “Eat My flesh and drink My blood?!” ?!” How unscriptural can He possibly get? We have no problem with that 2000+ yrs later because we hear the spirit of what He was saying,”
Can you explain how it was “unscriptural” for Jesus to say that? And are you saying that we should evaluate the truth value of his statement because, “we hear the spirit of what He was saying,”?
7. You stated, “Here is a model to judge a church by: The poor received Jesus gladly and he had a big rag-tag following (not all of them perfect by the way). The Pharisees on the other hand searched far and wide to make one proselyte. Hmmm…. Bethel has gone to 3 services on Sun am they are getting so huge because people are meeting God there and getting what they need to grow. There are other churches in Redding searching far and wide to make one proselyte. Rick Warren’s church is like 25-30,000 people and I didn’t think too much of that one way or the other until I saw him on God TV.”
Are you saying that we can judge whether or not a church is of God by counting how many people attend the services or how many services they have? Is that how we can divide between truth and error? If that is what you are saying can you give a scriptural reference?
Linda, I have asked you several times to give me scriptural references because you stated about Bethel, “The presence of the Lord is at Bethel and it’s not hard to tune into. They are also very Scriptural.” It is my assumption therefore that you value what the scripture says, and that you can give me scriptural references to support your arguements. If you cannot give me scriptural arguments then how else will I know who is “it” in the game of “demon tag”?
Hey Pat, that leash around your neck is so tight, you may want to back off before you lose consciousness
If you didn’t get the humor, I mean to say call off the attack there. Are you truly wanting to have references given you? Then would you change you opinion. It doesn’t seem to me that you actually want to hear a good Bible based argument that is derived contrary from the way you interpret scripture, otherwise you would have no problem with Linda’s argument. I agree that if one is going to argue a case then one should support their findings properly, but I have my doubts you would allow the latitude used. If Linda does not provide references, and you are actually open to another point of view then I will glad roll them out for you. Then you can do what you want with them. One thing I know that is true. Intellectual doctrine based on just intellect is always trumped by an encounter and experience with God(i.e.Paul). Intellect is great, but without a certain amount of faith and walking into the unknown you get the Greeks. If you want all mystical miracles etc. you get just the Jews. There’s some scripture there, need I really give an exact reference?
Bless You All
Dalen
Dalen,
And I am well known for my sense of humor. I was not attacking. I was asking Linda to justify her attack.
And I don’t mean to pick on Linda actually. However she made, in my opinion, some rather irresponsible accusations against many of the churches in the Redding area. I find that quite offensive. My guess is that she wrote her post while feeling rather emotional about M. Barry’s suggestion that people at Bethel were getting demonized. However, I find it unsettling that she compared other local churches to the Pharisees. I have seen this over and over again though the years, and I am always nervous when individuals of a particular church seem to suggest that God’s favor rests on them and their church, and if you are not with us you are just not with what God is doing. Now possibly she didn’t mean to suggest this, and if that is the case maybe she would like to clarify her position.
You stated, “It doesn’t seem to me that you actually want to hear a good Bible based argument that is derived contrary from the way you interpret scripture, otherwise you would have no problem with Linda’s argument.”
Your statement is rather illogical since I was asking specifically for a Bible based argument. You have not provided any argument yet you seem comfortable suggesting that I don’t want to hear a good Bible based argument. I have not stated my interpretation of her oblique references to scriptures, however I would be happy to do so.
So to answer your question, yes I very much would like to have those references. If you can provide a Bible based argument for her position then I will read it with an open mind, providing that you do so without any more ad hominem attacks against me.
I do have a question though:
You stated, “One thing I know that is true. Intellectual doctrine based on just intellect is always trumped by an encounter and experience with God(i.e.Paul).”
Your use of the word “trumped” is possibly a poor choice? I doubt that you were suggesting that experience trumps doctrine. Am I correct in my assumption of what you meant? My own opinion is that an encounter with the Spirit of God augments doctrine, but never trumps it. (Clearly you were talking about strictly intellectual based doctrine and I agree with you on that.) But in the broader since I don’t think you are suggesting that an “encounter” with God carries greater weight than doctrine are you?
Linda and/or Dalen
I said that I would give my “interpretation” to the scriptural references made in Linda’s post so here they are.
Linda wrote,” However does God manage to get through to the fundamentalist? Now that is a modern miracle in itself! They can be so mental in their relationship with God, the same shortcoming that caused the Pharisees to miss the day of their visitation.”
I asked, “Can you explain why it is wrong to be mental in our relationship with God? Can you give a scriptural reference that proves that it was being, “mental” that caused the Pharisees to miss the day of their visitation?”
Here is what Jesus said:
Matthew 22:37 Jesus replied: “`Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’
Loving God with our mind is not a suggestion, it is a command.
Is being mental why the Pharisees missed their day of visitation?
Luke 5:27 After this, Jesus went out and saw a tax collector by the name of Levi sitting at his tax booth. “Follow me,” Jesus said to him,
28. and Levi got up, left everything and followed him.
29. Then Levi held a great banquet for Jesus at his house, and a large crowd of tax collectors and others were eating with them.
30. But the Pharisees and the teachers of the law who belonged to their sect complained to his disciples, “Why do you eat and drink with tax collectors and `sinners’?”
31. Jesus answered them, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick.
32. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”
One of the reasons that the Pharisees rejected Jesus is that they refused to recognize that they were sinners.
And,
Matthew 21:42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures: “`The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone ; the Lord has done this, and it is marvelous in our eyes’ ?
43. “Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit.
44. He who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed.”
45. When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard Jesus’ parables, they knew he was talking about them.
They rejected Jesus. This is another reason they missed their visitation.
Not all of the Pharisee rejected him however:
John 19:38 Later, Joseph of Arimathea asked Pilate for the body of Jesus. Now Joseph was a disciple of Jesus, but secretly because he feared the Jews. With Pilate’s permission, he came and took the body away.
39. He was accompanied by Nicodemus, the man who earlier had visited Jesus at night. Nicodemus brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about seventy-five pounds.
46. Taking Jesus’ body, the two of them wrapped it, with the spices, in strips of linen. This was in accordance with Jewish burial customs.
Nicodemus was a Pharisee:
John 3:1 Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a member of the Jewish ruling council.
Yet he assisted in the burial of our Lord and Savior.
Jesus did not have a problem with the Pharisees teaching the Law, he had a problem with their “yeast” which was hypocrisy.
In fact, Jesus said:
Matthew 23:1 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples:
2. “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat.
3. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.
It was not their teaching of the Law that he criticized, it was their lack of practicing it.
Matthew 23:23 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices–mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law–justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.
He never criticized their teaching of the Law. It was their habit of not practicing justice, mercy and faithfulness that he criticized.
And furthermore:
Matthew 13:52 He said to them, “Therefore every teacher of the law who has been instructed about the kingdom of heaven is like the owner of a house who brings out of his storeroom new treasures as well as old.”
Contrary to Jesus criticizing being “mental”, he is in fact endorsing it. The great illustration of the last scripture reference is the Apostle Paul.
Linda asked:
“Now how is that picky error-paranoid theology more holy than being emotional and joyful and occasionally erratic?”
I have searched and can find no example of Jesus or the apostles warning us to not to be concerned with committing errors. To the contrary:
Acts 17:11 Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.
Gasp! They actually had the audacity to question Paul? How dare they!
Linda said:
“but put yourself in the shoes of those sincere, very dedicated doctrinal experts, the Pharisees.”
Sincere, very dedicated?
Matthew 23:27 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men’s bones and everything unclean.
Are you actually comparing the Anabaptists, pentecostals, Catholics, and other local churches of Redding to the Pharisees? The answer is yes you are. But, in order to make your comparison you first had to turn the Pharisees into “sincere” experts.
You either don’t know the scripture or you don’t mind twisting it to suit your own needs.
Linda stated, “Then He forgave the woman caught in adultery which was flat-out unscriptural.”
Now this is really a problem. A really big problem. Whenever anyone actually attempts to suggest that Jesus was being “unscriptural” they are starting to tread on very very dangerous ground. The question should be asked, “Why would anyone suggest something like this?” Could it be that they want to suggest that, “God is doing a new thing?” It that sounds far fetched to anyone I know for a fact that it is not. I have encountered this line of reasoning before among Christians who are trying to justify their particular ideas of what they claim has been revealed to them by the Spirit. This should be addressed and rebuked in the strongest possible terms. And quite frankly—while I have nothing against Linda—this is “flat-out” heresy and I don’t care if my statement offends Linda or anyone else for that matter.
Jesus said:
Matthew 5:17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
Linda needs to make a decision, either accept that Jesus fulfilled the Law or he didn’t. When Jesus forgave the woman caught in adultery he fulfilled the Law or he didn’t. He kept the Law or he broke it. Which is it Linda? This type of cavalier misuse, and dishonest quotation of scripture is heresy and nothing less.
Linda again indulges in this despicable reasoning when she says:
“The Pharisees were absolutely correct in asserting that the Bible said she should be stoned. Then to frost them all and freak out even His own disciples, “Eat My flesh and drink My blood?!” ?!” How unscriptural can He possibly get? We have no problem with that 2000+ yrs later because we hear the spirit of what He was saying,”
Linda, let me help you out with this one:
John 6:50 But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which a man may eat and not die.
51. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”
52. Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, “How can this man